Anurag Thakur at Idea Exchange: Despite corruption charges, AAP is not willing to answer questions. They’re drunk on power

My father was a professor in Jalandhar and wanted me to join the Armed Forces. But at the age of 11, I ran away from home for a couple of days to play cricket. I started playing for Jalandhar district, then became captain of Punjab, but my father suffered a heart attack. I was the eldest son and he wanted me to leave cricket and do something else. So I started an export house with my cousins at the age of 20. I moved again and became a cricket administrator. I never thought of joining politics but contested a by-election and entered the 14th Lok Sabha. I was lucky enough to be re-elected in the 15th, 16th and then the 17th Lok Sabha.

Liz Mathew: Both in the Finance Ministry and in Youth Affairs and Sports, there have been many challenges. So what are the big things that you are focusing on right now?

If I were to talk about finance, I think it was a great learning experience for me because of the challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic. Nobody knew what to do, how to get out of it, the way forward, but after 7-10 days I started meeting the Prime Minister every morning — me, Nirmalaji (Nirmala Sitharaman) and Amit bhai (Amit Shah). There were day-long meetings, starting at 9.30 in the morning,  with only a lunch break for an hour-and-a-half. In that time, I had to go home, eat lunch, and call at least 10 to 15 district DCs or SPs or ministers. Every minister was given a state or a couple of states to speak to various people to get feedback for what was happening in the states.

(Coming to sports), it is a state subject so we have limitations. I can give something for the elite athletes, I can start a few more centres, I can handhold the federation for their annual calendar and the training expenses, I can allow them to host big events like we did for the Chess Olympiad. We have the support of the Prime Minister to make India a sporting nation but it’s a state subject and that creates a big challenge.

Liz Mathew: What do you feel about consolidation of corporate power in the media and what’s your take on what has happened in the last one week?

Any Indian can invest in any company, I believe. And there is nothing new in corporates investing in companies.

‘We should check how many freebies are being given and if they are only for political gain or for things that are necessary… There should be a debate on how many freebies can a particular state give out.’ Express photo by Abhinav Saha

Liz Mathew: But when there is consolidation of corporate power in the media.

Nobody forced them to get the corporate onboard. Can I restrict corporates? Can I restrict institutes to invest? No. If they’re doing it as per the law of the land, as per the policy, one should be open to looking at that.

Liz Mathew: Many people have apprehensions about the way the media is going and the impact that it will have on democracy. As a politician, what do you feel about it?

I have a lot of faith in the Indian media. There should not be any fear. I think there’s enough competition in this field. I personally feel they should be technology-driven. People should be paid well because of the kind of hard work they put in. I see people waiting for hours just to take a byte, or for a 20-second video.

Ritu Sarin: So what in your view are the challenges before the Indian media today? Are you concerned about our falling rankings in the World Press Freedom Index? We were 142 last time, we are 150 now. I believe the government has also set up a committee to try and improve it. So is this one area of concern, and what are the other areas?

There’s a big question mark on the people who did the survey. Did they meet any of you when they did the survey? The credibility also comes from the organisation and the people they meet in India. Nobody’s putting pressure on anyone to restrict anyone… There might be a few people from different political parties who might be reaching out for favours. I’m not going to comment on them. Since five days they haven’t answered the five questions asked. We are talking about Ram rajya, they are talking about rum rajya.

Ritu Sarin: So this ranking doesn’t have much credibility in your view? And is it true that a committee has been set up to try and improve the ranking?

If my country’s media doesn’t have any difficulty and can work freely and the environment doesn’t impose any restrictions on them, then India doesn’t need a certificate from any other country. If you think we have restricted you in any way, then I’m here to listen to you. But if anyone comes with an agenda and gives a rating, I don’t want to comment on it. It doesn’t affect me.

Sandeep Dwivedi: In the Commonwealth Games we won medals in disciplines where we generally, historically, didn’t do well. So now there is this push for India going for events where there are more medals, like athletics and swimming. As a minister, what is your vision? Do you want to focus on your traditional strength or want to take this big leap? And how will you do that?

There are new disciplines, games where India has started doing very well, where we didn’t see any medal in the past. We have put in effort towards the Target Olympic Podium Scheme, by pumping in money, taking care of their boarding, lodging and training facilities, not only locally but globally, their participation in events locally as well as globally, everything is taken care of by the Government of India. In addition, six lakh rupees per annum is given as an out-of-pocket allowance, which has never happened before.

Second is the Khelo India Youth Games and the University Games, which created a pipeline or bench strength for future events. Corporates are also pitching in by starting their academies or centres, or picking a few players to help them financially. I personally feel our players should get more leagues and tournaments. Another is a trainer’s programme to train our trainers to the next level. Third is research and development — we should pump in more money there.

Liz Mathew: Now that elections in Himachal Pradesh are nearing and seeing that you take on the AAP every day, are you going for a bigger role in state politics?

AAP is a party of highs and lows — high on liquor, lies and deceit, and low on morals as well as ethics. It has become a habit for them to shoot and scoot. Have you got the answers to the five questions we have raised to them on the liquor scam? No. I, as a BJP MP, have the right to ask questions on the liquor scam. But the accused in the scam, (Delhi’s Deputy Chief Minister) Manish Sisodia, and the kingpin of the liquor scam, Arvind Kejriwal, did not say even a word on the questions raised by the BJP in the last five-seven days. Their first Health Minister (Satyendar Jain) is in jail, their Health Minister in Punjab (Vijay Singla) is facing corruption charges and is also in jail. Despite the corruption charges, they’ve abandoned decency. They’re drunk on power. They’re not willing to answer any questions.

Liz Mathew: In the AAP press conference, they raised some allegations against the BJP. You raised some allegations, you said it was a quid pro quo. This money has gone to Punjab. You both don’t give us any proof or evidence that this money was spent in the Punjab election. Where’s the proof or evidence?

Proof is in the documents of the Delhi government. I’ll ask you one thing, why was there a deviation from the policy? They (the expert panel) had given a notice on October 25, 2021 to the companies… what action was taken? There were clear recommendations that the manufacturer, retailer and distributor cannot be one. The commission (for the government) was raised from 2 to 12 per cent. Why was it raised? Where has the money gone? When poor people were running away from Delhi (during the Covid lockdown), the Delhi government had given Rs 144 crore (in the form of waivers) to liquor vendors. It should have gone to the Delhi exchequer. Why were they refunded? Not a single person from AAP has answered these questions. All they say is that this is a beautiful policy. If it was such a good policy then why has it been rolled back? AAP has swindled money. They’ve been unjust to the people of Delhi.

Nihal Koshie: Whenever there is this debate by the BJP about dynastic politics, the Opposition brings the example of BCCI where you have relatives of officials taking over from them. What do you have to say about it?

I’m glad you raised this question. But are they democratically elected by the members of the BCCI? Yes, they are. Voters have elected them. They are not appointed. There’s a big difference.

Harikishan Sharma: How do you see the removal of popular leaders like Shivraj Singh Chouhan and Nitin Gadkari from the top decision-making body of the party?

It’s an ongoing process. Once it was Atal Bihari Vajpayee, LK Advani and Murli Manohar Joshi. From time to time, the party takes decisions that are in its favour. If the party decides that we should leave our ministerial post and work as party workers in a state, we will happily accept that. This is  BJP’s speciality. This is why Narendra Modi is the PM of the country while the Gandhis have only captured their party. Now Ghulam Nabi Azad and several veteran leaders have resigned from the Congress because the party is not able to escape the clutches of one family. This is the difference between the BJP and other parties.

Harikishan Sharma: Will the BJP welcome Azad?

He is a senior politician, he can take his own decisions. Give him some time to decide. I have good personal relations with him. This is one of the advantages of being in Parliament, I have good relations with senior and junior leaders. I have good relations with Rahul Gandhi too.

Liz Mathew: There is no camaraderie between the ruling party members and the Opposition benches now. Even in states, every other regional party has this complaint that the federal structure is in danger and the BJP is using its brute majority to just bulldoze things.

I enjoy very good relations with others. I think Central Hall is one place where people don’t restrict themselves just to their party members but engage with others too. There is an exchange of ideas in Central Hall and outside also. Earlier, politicians were there in Parliament for a long time. Today, there is churning because new faces are entering Parliament.

Divya A: In the recent Punjab Assembly elections, AAP had massive success. Do you think their plank of health and education will resonate with Himachal Pradesh and later Haryana?

I request you to visit Punjab today. You will see the scene on the ground after four months. (There have been) more than 30 murders in broad daylight. It has the worst law and order situation. Whether people are comfortable under AAP rule in Punjab or not, I request you to do a survey on that. They talked about corruption, but they had to kick out their Health Minister in Punjab within two months. People have seen the mohalla clinic turn to mohalla theka (liquor shop). You can’t find medicines there but you can find booze at every doorstep. Nobody’s looking at that model. They won’t win a single seat in Himachal Pradesh. The people of Himachal have understood how the arrival of AAP in Punjab has lead to crime, murders and corruption.

Divya A: This government is using social media in a big way to reach out to people. There’s a perception that at times it is being used to delegitimise mainstream media. At times, questions are raised on individual journalists.

Fake news sometimes creates tension in society. It’s very important to cross-check news. If fake news about our friendly nations is being published, it is against India. Those activities are illegal. More than 102 such web portals, YouTube channels and websites have been banned. None of them were from mainstream media. We should ban websites and YouTube channels and flag videos that spread fear, superstition and rumours. If an individual is running an outlet that is publishing credible news, we have no problem with that.

Vandita Mishra: You spoke about AAP and both Sisodia and Kejriwal, whom you called the kingpin of corruption. I see two issues here. One of propriety — as a senior minister, you are pronouncing on a chief minister and also on a state minister. The second is due process — as a minister who has to promote the practice of due process, when you say that a CM is corrupt, where is the due process?

If Kejriwal has any morality left, then he should answer the five questions I raised. Kejriwal is the kingpin of corruption and Sisodia is also involved. I will continue to say that till they prove their innocence.

Aakash Joshi: Today, political parties, including AAP, take such maximalist positions in political speeches. Though necessary, do you think it will hamper the work the Centre and states have to do together as part of cooperative federalism?

When we were in the Opposition, I had to make a speech on the Commonwealth Games (CWG) scam. After the speech, a Congress leader got 10 other leaders of her party to my table in the Central Hall and told them she felt proud of what I had said. If I criticise the Congress, it’s not as if we stop talking. It’s only about highlighting what you have done and getting it into the public domain, whether it’s in Parliament or on the street. I don’t have an individual fight with anyone.

Liz Mathew: What’s your take on the revdi or freebies culture?

We should check how many freebies are being given and if they are only for political gain or for things that are necessary… For example, when Telangana was formed, it had a lot of money. Today, it has a loan of around Rs 2 lakh crore. Where did the money go? Did it lead to any asset creation or was it spent on freebies? There should be a debate on how many freebies can a particular state give out.

Liz Mathew: Do you see giving rations to 800 million people as freebies?

It was the need of the hour because  during the pandemic people were under a lockdown, they had no income.

Liz Mathew: When you hear about dynasty politics, do you feel uncomfortable?

Not at all. I got an opportunity to contest because I did well in the field of sports. My father’s name is Prem Kumar Dhumal, my name is Anurag Singh Thakur, and my sons names are Udayveer and Jaiditya Singh. My sons don’t use my surname. I don’t use my father’s name. But I’m proud of my father and what he has achieved as a farmer, professor and CM, and the way he did clean politics for more than four decades. Yes, I had an advantage. But when you talk about dynasty, it’s about the political parties that are run by families. It’s not about one seat… There they are holding power from Mulayam Singhji to Akhilesh (Samajwadi Party), from Karunanidhi to MK Stalin (DMK). Similarly, N Chandrababu Naidu to others (TDP), from Mamata Banerjee to Abhishek Banerjee (TMC) and Pandit Nehru to Indira Gandhi to Rajiv Gandhi to Sonia Gandhi to Rahul and Priyanka Gandhi (Congress)… They are holding power for so many years.